Production differences and anomalies you've found!

Share with us differences you've found (or wondered about) in your restoration (or) while searching for parts, whether it be N.O.S. parts or off of parts cars. Catbird has shared some interesting info in another thread titled "Power Brakes". Apparently there were differences between assembly plants regarding protocol. I will somehow figure out how to move that here. In the mean time, by all means, share your stories and experiences here. This could be interesting and, I'm sure, enlightening as well.

The first thing that comes to mind is the painted fins on my car. The fins are painted blue like the roof. I bought the car from a non car guy whos grandpa bought it brand new. I can't imagine either one of them painting the fins but it's possible. I've never seen another one with the painted fins.

Also, isn't there a debate on whether or not the Tri Power badges were factory installed on the Bonnies? I read something that tri power badges on Bonnies are not factory even though we see them all the time

What part of the fins are painted? Of all the pictures and research I have done on trim tag decoding, nothing is mentioned about painted fins. According to to GM codes, two tone cars refers to the main body and the roof either being "monochromatic" or the body and roof painted in contrasting colors. They had a rather complex code system that determined the wheel color based on the color combinations or whether it was monochromatic. Some 1959 GM models did have "split" paint schemes along the body lines, but not on the Pontiacs. Now, about the Tri-Power emblems. I have not come acrossed anything that either confirms or disputes whether or not they were factory, dealer or customer applied aftermarket items. I guess it's whom you ask........On my car I did find the Fisher body # 1545 in grease pencil inside on the driver side roof panel, under the sound deadening material (it was loose, so I carefully pulled it down). It is also written on the engine side of the firewall, by the heater. The Fisher body number is on the trim tag and was the sequential number as they were built.

POCI doesn't recognize the Tri-Power emblems on Bonnevilles. and actually deducts points when judging them. They seem to have researched this enough to take that stand. The Master Parts Catalog lists the emblems as 1958 and 1959....all. This is incorrect as the 1958 emblems had a red and blue background, while the 1959 was gold. It does list the barrel nuts for the emblem as being for the 21 (Catalina) and 24 (Starchief) only. Keep in mind that the Tri-Power could also be a dealer installed option, as could be the emblems. The prevailing theory is that the powers to be felt that the emblem would detract from the Bonneville door crest. Remember the Bonneville was marketed more as a luxury car, than a performance car.
The trim tag number was usually the scheduled sequence number for Fisher Body and does not relate to the VIN. The body build number was constantly increasing from 1 on up to the last day of production. The VIN started at 1001 and restarted at 1001 for each model Catalina, Starchief, Bonneville and Bonneville Safari. Also there were Buicks and Oldsmobiles interspersed throughout at each plant except Pontiac Mi. The exception to this was for convertibles and station wagons at least up through 1960. Convertible bodies were built in Lansing Mi. and wagon bodies were built in Euclid Oh. These were then shipped to the various assembly plants and inserted onto the line as needed. I'm not sure why this was done. Quite probably, special jigs and fixtures were needed for these body styles, and because of the relative low volume, it was more economical to build them in only one place. Sometime between 1960 and 1965 this practice, at least for convertibles was changed, and the individual plants began assembling the bodies.
Grease pencil and rubber stampings are anybodies guess. Sometimes the were alerts to workers to add a part or option, sometimes they were acknowledgements that a part or procedure was completed, and sometimes an inspectors OK. Each plant had different ideas on how these were used, or not used. Sometimes it differed on each shift......John

John-Very informative and interesting! I wondered about the Tri-Power emblems myself...now I know. I have seen original cars with actual tri power and no fender emblem. Keep up the good work. As to the Fisher body number, the parts car I got my front bumper from is Fisher body number 104! The VIN tag on the door jamb is gone, so I don't know which plant it came from. The interesting thing about the VIN's is that each plant ad it's own code, i.e. K-Kansas City, P-Pontiac and so on. I've mentioned this before, but humor me...1-Series (Catalina), 59- Year, K- Plant code, 1001-XXXXX-Production Sequence. With each plant having a code letter and leaving the trim tag to determine what the car was equipped with, meant a relatively small but unique VIN for each car produced with no chance for a duplicate number. Now the VIN on my car is 159K5140, with 9 other plants producing these cars, mine is 4139 off the line at the Kansas City plant only. In 1981 the Federal Gov't mandated the 17 digit VIN that distinguishes just about everything about the vehicle..even down to the day and shift it was produced! It also relegated the trim tag on some vehicles to being a decal in the glove compartment or none existent all together. Sorry for the rant.....just sharing. My brain gets full, so I need to purge information to make room for the new.......

59 Blue Bomber.....It seems that almost everyone gets confused about this. Production began on September 11, 1958, most likely in all assembly plants. So on that date I would think that Pontiac Catalina VIN 159K1001 rolled off the line. Sometime after that, Catalina 159K5140 was completed, making it the 4140th. There would have been 159W5140 (Wilmington, De.) 159C5140 (Southgate, Ca.) 159F5140 (Framingham, Ma.) etc.
If your parts car was other than a convertible or wagon, the trim tag would tell final asembly plant. The two letters before the body number would correspond to the Fisher Body plant which was within the same building or close to it. So "BW" was the Fisher supplier for Wilmington, "BL" was for Linden, N.J. etc. The Fisher Body code was the same as the final assembly plant code, with a "B" for body in front. The exceptions to this were Pontiac, Mi. (VIN "P" and Body code "PO," and as I mentioned convertibles "LA" for Lansing, and wagons "EP" for Euclid.
As far as the Tri-Power emblems, If I had a Bonneville with trips, I'd probably want everyone to know it. I don't think many of us have a 100 point trailer queen anyway, so "if you got it flaunt it."
If you are interested in "newer" old Pontiacs, as I am, the longer VIN can be useful. I'm keeping my eye out for a 1970 to 1973 Formula Firebird. The VIN can tell you if it really is a Formula, as opposed to a cloned base Firebird or an Esprit. It can also identify a 350, 400, or 455 engine. Before PHS came along it was easy to clone a 1964 or 1965 GTO because the VIN was that of a Tempest LeManns. Now even before sending for the PHS documents shoppers look for the "242" VIN on 1966 and up GTO's......John

John-My apologies, you mentioned before about my VIN being 4140, not 4139. You are correct it is 4140. Like I said before, my brain tends to get full and mix things up sometimes. I am aware that each plant would have the same sequence number with a different plant letter designation. The parts car I have been scavenging is a 4 dr sedan like mine, although it has been picked clean like a holiday turkey, it does have some useful parts left. The floors and trunk have made it into a car Fred Flintstone would be proud to own! Taking tools in the yard where the cars are is forbidden, but I will take a rubbing of the trim tag. Just about every one of the 3000 cars there have had the VIN tags removed, though some are still on. I will keep an eye out for the elusive '70-'73 Formula Firebird for you..I'm sure there's one in a barn.....somewhere! I agree about the "Trailer Queen" philosophy..I certainly am not shooting for that, I enjoy driving mine too much to let it sit and spend my nights rubbing it with a diaper. Yes, I want it to look cherry, but not to the extreme of a 100 pt show car. If mine had Triple Deuces, I too would flaunt it as well! But I prefer leaving the car as stock as possible, so the factory 2 BBL is staying right where it belongs! Thanks for sharing your incredible knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.

59 Blue Bomber.....No need to apologize, I thought the same thing until I stopped to analize what the VIN decoding instructions were actually saying. Then it hit me that my car 159K1086 was not the 85th car. I'm only happy to share what information I have. Along with the cars themselves, I have made a sub-hobby of collecting as much information and literature as I can about them. This includes shop manuals (there were seven of them for 1959 that I know of,) Master Parts Catalog, dealer brochures, dealer albums, showroom signs and banners, magazine articles and advertisements, and even confidential dealer price lists. If you need to know the MSRP and dealer net on an option or accessory let me know. As I mentioned before, I've been facinated by this stuff for a long time.
One thing that I've been curious about with regards to the convertibles and wagons is how they were shipped to the various final assembly plants. Most likely they went by rail or truck, but where were they painted. Probably at the final plant, but how did they keep the raw bodies from rusting during shipping? A little rain from a leaking box car roof could turn raw steel into hugger orange real quick. Oh well, this will most likely remain a mystery. I have seen interviews with people who worked in various plants in the mid to late 60's, but if you started working in 1959 at the age of 18, you would be about 70 now. It's a shame that all that wasn't recorded at the time. Memories fade or get embelished after fifty odd years. Hell I'm 67 and sometimes don't remember what I had for breakfast......John

John-Wow, it just keeps getting better! I bet you have a great collection. It could very well, depending on the actual production capacity, that our 2 cars were built within a couple weeks of eachother and by the same guys! Pretty cool. I would love to have an original window sticker and PHS and another internet company do make repro stickers, but only for 1964-up and 1960-up, respectively. I remember mentioning to you about the Ralph Hoyt Company in Portland. I was told my Grandfather's car came from there. Recently my Brother came across some interesting items after he moved. He found a set of playing cards from Windolph Pontiac. Printed along with the name is "Northwest's Largest Pontiac Dealer 1901 West Burnside Street, Portland 5, Oregon". Ring any bells? He found these along with an original key to the Ponitac and some various other card's with my Grandfather's name on them. I think this is where he actually bought the car, but not really sure. I have not been able to find a list of dealerships in the portland area. Anyway, about the bodies-in white (a term for a bare steel shell) being shipped unpainted, when the pieces are stamped, the dies are lubricated with a light oil similar to vegetable or castor oil. I spoke to a man years ago who worked at the Norwood Assembly Plant, building the Camaro and Nova. He told me that the bodies were never cleaned or stripped of the oily residue off the parts before being loaded in the jigs to be spot welded. They were dipped in a cleaning solution, then a primer bath before painting. He also stated that GM started this process in '58 or '59. He says the oil was left on to prevent "slag spatter" and finger prints from forming rust. Perhaps they were shipped with this oil still on them.....He told me some other interesting stories about the "goings' on" while he worked for GM. One of his co-worker's fell ill in the "pit" and he himself pulled "the" red cord to stop the line and was told under no circumstances to ever do that again, no matter what!!

59 Blue Bomber.....The oil on the dies makes the most sense to me. I was pretty sure they wouldn't paint them at Lansing and risk damage during shipping or foul up the systems at the assembly plants, but I'm fully aware of what even humidity can do to raw steel.
You mentioned finger prints, and that reminded me of an incident that happened a long time ago. I ordered a new 1965 GTO in March; Montero Red with Parchment interior. When I took delivery in May, there was a perfect red finger print on the white driver side window sill. Either someone touched the outside while it was still wet, or they were bleeding as they worked the line.
A few months back, there was a series of articles in "Smoke Signals" that interviewed a guy who worked at Pontiac Mi. plant, for a couple years starting in 1965. He gave some interesting accounts of the operations there, but some of his stories were contradictory, and he often diverted the interview to his exploits in his own new GTO. I hope I don't offend anyone who is reading this, but he also seemed to radiate that pervasive union attitude of "I don't give a rat's ass about quality or company resources or anything except my paycheck." I know it's not politically correct, but I've seen it happen enough times, that That's my belief.
Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, PHS can't help us with documentation proir to 1961, mainly due to a fire and loss of records. There was a company that I think has been absorbed into PHS that advertised that they could reproduce 1959 window stickers, but you would have to supply them with all the information. I have a photocopy of a real sticker and all the correct wording and MSRP for my car, but I haven't followed up on it as yet. By the way, 1959 was the first year that window stickers were used, as mandated by Federal law. I have the PHS and a sticker for my 1967 Firebird, and it seems to draw a lot of interest at car shows. People are facinated by the prices of cars back then, not realizing that $120 a week was a good wage then......John

John- I have talked to a few retired auto workers from the "Big Three". One told me about his experiences with "I don't give a rat's ass attitiude" in the body shop on the jig line, before robotics took over much of the welding. He told of another employee who had been reprimanded for whatever reason and decided to install a 2 door stamping on one side of a 4 door car. The rest of the "crew' went along with the gag and the car continued along the line, 1 door on one side, 2 doors on the other, paint, trim, glass, etc, etc...until the car came to final inspection. The manager on duty was not amused with their "creativity" and parked the car at the end of the line, with a sign on the roof offering "free" time off if anyone would "rat out" the culprit. No one did and he said the car was sent to the crusher after about a week. I guess punishing all of them could have been disasterous...He said the same guy was eventually fired for welding a body shell to the conveyor before he went home for the day, wreaking havoc for the entire plant! He also worked for GM when they had a huge strike at a Nova plant in 1972, that virtually shut the plant down for some 4 months, during the time when the plant would have been retooled for the '73 model year. When the strike was over and the plant was to be restarted, 1100 cars in various states of assembly that had to be scrapped because they would not meet new federal guidelines. Okay, enough stories, is your Window Sticker for a Pontiac? I found some info about Chuck Bleeg, a Portland used car dealer who has been in business since 1953 on Sandy Blvd. He says he bought most of his "late" model cars taken in for trades from Bud Meadows Pontiac, Windolph Pontiac and Lyman Slack Chevrolet in the 1950' and '60's. Bud Meadows' dealership was located on 12th & Sandy. Is this where your car came from? I remember you saying something about this...I would love a photocopy or color scan of your window sticker...perhaps I could "reproduce" one for mine.....just for fun.

Fascinating information, folks!

59BlueBomber, I think I've mentioned previously that my parents purchased a new '56 Chieftain Catalina at Meadows Pontiac in Portland in January, 1956. I recall having seen the dealership when I was a small child, and I would often see older Pontiacs with the Meadows Pontiac tag back during the 1960's and 1970's. I think that Meadows Pontiac might have later become Mike Salta Pontiac, but I'm going strictly from memory on this.

The Windolph Pontiac name is not familiar to me, which makes me think that the dealership had changed names or closed before the mid-1960's or so, when I began poring over the weekly car ads in The Oregonian.

On the subject of convertible and Safari wagon bodies being shipped to the final assembly plants, I believe that the bodies were already painted. Why do I think this? I've seen vintage photos of '59 Oldsmobile Fiesta wagon and '59 Buick Estate Wagon bodies under assembly at the Ionia Body Manufacturing plant in Owosso, Michigan. These car bodies were fully painted, and trucked to final assembly plants, where the front fenders and hoods were painted and attached to the cars after the bodies had been dropped onto the chassis.

Indeed, this was General Motors' practice for many years during the body-on-frame era, and it's why many of the older GM cars have slightly mis-matched paint colors when comparing the front clip with the remainder of the car body. The Fisher Body plants painted the bodies; the B-O-P assembly plants painted the front clips. This was especially apparent on some of the hard-to-match dark gold cars GM built during the late-1960's/early-1970's.

59BlueBomber, does any of the documentation you have for your Catalina tell you when the car was purchased, or the factory invoice date? What is the Fisher Body sequence number for your car? Comparing the body number with the VIN number will you give some idea of the percentage of Catalina sedan production to total '59 Pontiac production at the Kansas City/Fairfax assembly plant.

Regarding the window stickers, the key would be to locate an original sticker. The original stickers on the '59 GM cars often used off-white paper and colored ink, which might not necessarily come through on a photo copy. With an original sticker to use as a pattern, there are resources who can readily reproduce original-style stickers with unique data for each car.

Interesting stuff guys

Thanks for chiming in Brian

Guys.....Upon rereading my last post I want to clarify what I said about the window sticker. The wording implied that I had a photocopy of my sticker. A year or so ago, someone was auctioning off a window sticker for a 1959 Catalina Vista on E-bay. I printed a copy of it for future verification of any reproductions that might be available. It's not a very good copy and is only about 3"x4" for both sides. It is not a copy of my cars sticker. It would be good for verifing the layout, font, and wording of options. I can also provide the wording and MSRP information for anyone who wants to take on the research of this project for all of us. I have some information on two companies who advertise window sticker sales for 1959.

Automotive Services
P.O. Box 884
Sterling Hts, MI 48311

This is the company that I think has been absorbed by PHS, and is where I got the one for my Firebird.

Triple A Enterprises
P.O. Box 8463
Bloomington, IN 47408

One last thing before I go to bed, there is an interesting site that has alot of information regarding dealers. For you guys, go to the <ultimategto.com> site and look for zone 25 & 26. This might help in your dealer questions......John

John- Once again, thanks for your valuable information. Centurion- Now I remember it was you who mentioned Bud Meadows Pontiac..my apologies..my brain is like spaghetti when it comes to where I read posts. I have several forums on various automotive subjects I post on, so it does get skewed sometimes. I have dabbled in graphic arts over the years and I would like to get my hands on a copy or scan of that window sticker, perhaps I can make a template available to anyone who wants one for their car. I have researched a few leads on obtaining them, but nothing has panned out as of yet...they are just not available for the year, make and model we all love! Maybe someday....Here's another story I remember from "Grinder" as he was affectionately called...He told me employee's were allowed to purchase cars from the plant where they worked. A production order was placed for the make, model and the options (or lack of, I'll get to that!) that were to be installed. Most vehicles that were ordered were bare bones "poverty" cars, usually the low horsepower engine, cloth seats, painted bumpers, steelies with hubcaps, etc, etc... you get the idea. Of course everybody on the line were friends or in some cases relatives, but not usually with the managers, but sometimes. This is where it gets interesting. It started in the welding line, one guy would put extra spot welds on the rocker sills, maybe double up on backing plates, put a full length bead instead of a few tack welds as called for. Jump to painting and trim. A bigger engine or heavily optioned one is installed with different air cleaners. Leather seating would be covered in vinyl, painted chrome bumpers installed, alloy wheels covered with full hubcaps held on with dum dum...you get the picture! All this would take place right under the management's nose. They had sub lines or off-shoots that handled remedial work or repairs as not to obstruct the flow of the actual assembly line. They would "hold" these cars(or trucks) until the manager was away and at the right time, out the door they would go into the lot until that particular "customer" went home for the day. He would drive it home, peel off the vinyl covers, SOS pad the bumpers to remove the paint, swap out the "low HP" air cleaner with the right one stashed in the trunk under the spare, radios were stuffed inside seat cushions when they were ordered "radio delete". several sets of decals hidden under carpet and installed at home. They would even go to the trouble to put in a stick trans without the shifter and put an auto column in with the lever in place....not sure on that one, but that's what Grinder told me, anyway! This happened more often than not. Some guys would even manage to get fully dressed engines out of the building on the night shift, roll them under the fence and get them later or have someone meet them. Ah the good 'ol days! I wonder if these guys were dumb enough to drive them back to work everyday?Hmmmm.......

wow that's crazy

59BlueBomber, I found this online, but it doesn't tell us much!



You might find it useful to begin checking with some of the old car clubs in the Portland area. There will be some older members who will remember these dealerships and help you identify the loctions. It would be fun for your to shoot some photos of your car in front of the former dealership structure, if it still exists.

The public library should also have old telephone books, city directories, etc. that would help you pinpoint the years of operation for each of these long-vanished dealerships.

The Ultimate GTO Site does list Meadows Pontiac, as follows:

25 287 B Meadows Pontiac, 2705 NE Sandy Blvd, Portland, OR
From Bill Morgan (bmorgue@hotmail.com) ’67 Grand Prix

This may mean that the '67 Grand Prix was delivered there new, and the owner (Bill Morgan, whose e-mail address is listed) may have more information.

There's no reference to Windolph Pontiac, but the GTO site focuses only on dealerships that were in business during the 1964 - early-1970's time period. Even so, the list is not complete.

Guys.....That list is incomplete because it has been developed by all the people who took the time to post based on their knowledge from original purchases, or the information supplied to them by PHS. PHS has the most complete list as they have access to the original Pontiac records. There's a snowballs chance in hell they would part with that information, and as I mentioned before, those records only go back to 1961.
59 Blue Bomber, I'd be more than willing to post or send you a copy of the copy that I have. Unfortunately, I know a little more about Pontiacs than I do about computers. I consider it a good day when I can read or send an Email! I can scan things into "my documents" but getting it from there to this forum or an email is like driving a Honda; never done it!.....John

John- I understand about PHS not wanting to "share" the info they have, when they can charge $50 for their packet just for them to decode and research the info you provide them. If you are documenting a 100 pt show car for judging or to put it up for auction, that's another story. I checked the sites that were suggested, but one is run by PHS and links back to them. The other one does not do Pontiacs before 1960. As far as scanning the sticker goes, if you already have in your "Documents", it's easy to send in an email. All you need to do is compose a message to send in your email and click on "attachments" and it will ask you to "browse" where you want the attachment to send from. Go to you documents or where ever you have it stored and click on it. Hit send and your done. You could even post it here if you can. My email address is [url=olichevymaui@aol.com]olichevymaui@aol.com[/url]

59 Blue Bomber.....Sorry I haven't replied sooner, busy with other things. I don't want this project to die without a fight. I put my copy into my printer and tried to enlarged it. All that happened was that the readable parts got fainter, the color got washed out, and the fine print proved to have not been captured in the original photo anyway. Scanned it into the computer with the same results. This puts us back to square one. My copy is only going to be good to verify a reproduction. I should have bought the original off E-Bay, but thought it was a waste of 8 or 9 bucks. I figured at some point I'd get one from the two sources I mentioned before, and a copy of that one would be all I'd need to check accuracy. Ah well hindsight is always 20-20. Lets keep digging, and see what we can come up with......John

John- Thanks for all you are doing. I see what you mean about the quality when something is scanned or attempted to be blown up on a printer. I found an original window sticker for a '59 Buick. I was able to photoshop the Buick font and related info out and insert Pontiac info onto it. It looks pretty good, but not an exact replica, though. I was able to manipulate it from a pretty small scale to almost 8.5 X 11. It is a little fuzzy, but not bad to display at shows to give people an idea what options cost in 1959. People get a kick out of seeing that whitewalls were $48.00 and power brakes $43.26! I was wondering if this looks anything like the real thing, since I have never seen one. I agree that we should not let this project go by the wayside. I sent an email and a letter to GM regarding the archives, but have not heard anything as of yet. From what I've been told, they still have a great deal of literature and original blueprints, even from concepts cars that they only built one or two of. Chad

Chad, I've just e-mailed you a scan of an original '59 Pontiac window sticker -- front and rear -- with dimensions.

It's in a .pdf format, and I couldn't figure out how to get it posted here.

Please let me know if you did not receive it.

Wow.....When I realized that my copy wasn't going to be useful enough for us, I asked for help on the Performance Years site. 34,214 members and no replies. Our little group of 101 comes up with the needle in the haystack. Chad, have you been able to do any magic with that, as far as producing some blanks to work with? The back is almost as interesting as the front......John

Centurion, John, Et Al...I have been working on cleaning up the window sticker. It is tedious work, but I think it will be very useful. The Sticker is 50 years old, but in pretty good conditon considering that. I have managed to get rid of the wrinkles and restore the missing corners, but I still have a lot of work to do. I want to provide a blank template as well as reproductions of stickers if someone doesn't want to take the time to type it up. I have managed to re-produce the proper typeset and size that was used originally. Like mentioned by Centurion, the paper has a yellow tint to it, so it's hard to tell if it was a parchment color or white at one time. I will do both. I want to keep it electronic, but I'm weighing the cost of a two sided hard copy on paper as well. Using my scanner and a highly modified photoshop type program, so re-coloring and tinting is not unlike archaeology...very time consuming, to say the least! Okay..back to work...I will keep you posted on the progress.

Chad.....Looking at my copy, I can definately say that the front field is white, with blue printing and borders. The shade of blue is questionable. The back has a field of light blue, with a small white border. The printing within the box is a slightly darker blue, and the PONTIAC, AMERICA'S NUMBER 1 ROAD CAR, INSTRUCTIONS FOR REMOVAL, the box outline itself, and the 7 pointed crest are an even darker blue. I can add that these colors are consistent with the one I have from PHS for my 67 Firebird. That I could snail-mail you a perfect copy of, to help determine the proper shades of blue. Let me know.....John