Help with color matching

Hey gang.  I'm a long way off from a color coat or refinishing the interior but thought I'd get started on the detective work.  My car may not be show quality when I'm done but I am "trying" to restore it to factory origonal where I can.

Is the body color code stamped somewhere on the car?  I'm 99% sure the body color is Dundee Green.

I have a paint chip sheet from Ditzler that lists this as Dundee Green Poly but I've also seen this referred to as Dundee Green Metallic.  The paint chip from Ditzler sure looks metallic.  Does anyone know if they were metallic or not?  

I'm sure the Ditzler sheet has faded a bit so does anyone have the current paint codes for an exact match?

As for the interior... Mice most certainly destroyed the trim tag under the rear seats a long time ago.

59 Blue Bomber gets honerable mention for directing me to SMS Auto Fabrics found here http://www.smsautofabrics.com/

My vinyl door panel colors can be described as Dark Green and Light Green.   SMS lists the dark green as L-812 and the light green as L-733.

My origonal seats were a light green which SMS lists as 59-9511.

I think my dash color is referred to as Medium Green.  Does anyone have the paint codes for this?

My interior floor is mostly surface rust, but the transmission hump from the firewall back to under the front seat still shows what looks like the same medium green that was used on the dash.  Does anyone know if the dash color was used on all of the interior floor?

All of the interior metal trim matches the medium green used on the dash.

The inside of the roof is red which is probably just a protective coating.  I've seen the same red color here and there throughout the interior including under the dash.

The cloth windlace is a light green.  I haven't called them yet but I'm guessing SMS will know this one.

The cloth headliner is the same light green as the windlace so I'm hoping SMS can help there too.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks for the help!

Michael

Michael…..it's not too soon to begin preparation for the interior. SMS will make excellent copies of your door panels, but it will probably take them close to a year to complete, so order them as soon as possible. They do not make seat covers, but can supply all the correctly embossed vinyl pieces so you can have a local upholsterer make the covers. They should also have the woven material for the seats.

The codes for your paint and interior will be stamped on the cowl tag on the drivers side just below and in front of the windshield. If the color is what you suspect, it should read "PAINT DD" and "TRIM 203." As you already know, "D" is Dundee Green. "Poly" is just G.M. speak for metallic paint. None of those old paint formulas can be used to mix modern paints. A good Ditzler (PPG) paint supplier can match the color if you can provide a clean shiny sample. That's not always easy to do, if the car has been painted over, but maybe something hidden like the inside of the fuel door, or the underside of the trunk lid.

I have the codes for the interior paint, but again they don't translate to modern formulas. Fortunately the interiors are a little better protected from the elements, and should be easier to find a good sample like the inside of the glovebox door. There were two greens available for 1959. "Sherwood Green" and "Medium Green" (Jademist Green.) I'm not sure which would be yours, but it doesn't matter because you need to have it matched anyway. Whatever color you have mixed will be good for all the metal including the dash face, heater box, the window trim, and the dash top. Don't sand your dash top smooth. It's supposed to be textured to defuse glare. There was a special paint for that also, but you can use the regular paint as long as the texture is still there. The floors were primed with a red primer, not with the regular interior paint. Every car I've seen has some interior paint on the driveline hump. I think that is just overspray from when the painters climbed in to paint the heater box and steering column. The red primer was also used on the inside of the roof and under the dash.

SMS should be able to provide the headliner and windlace. I do know of another supplier who may have the windlace if SMS does not. Let me know what you find out. I'll try to post some pictures of your interior patterns if I can. Don't hold your breath though, I'm better with old Pontiacs than new computers……John

John thanks so much yet again!

I guess I need to lift the hood huh?  It might take a day or two for me to clean it off first as its covered with cardboard and a pile of tools about 2 feet high!  LOL

I should be able to get a good sample from under the front door panels after I clean them up a bit with rubbing compound.  I have replacements for the front doors so I can cut off a piece to use as a sample.  

When I'm ready for a color coat (some years from now...) I'll be stripping the exterior to bare metal, including things like door jambs, underside of the trunk lid, inside of the doors (under the door panels), etc.  So as long as the paint can be matched I won't have a problem with a slight variance in the new color.

I'm pretty sure I can use one of the interior trim peices as a sample for the darker green on the interior.  Are there paint chip sheets floating around for the interior colors?  Medium Green and Jademist Green ring a bell which is why I was calling it a medium green in my post but it would be nice to know for sure for my records.  Am I having another pipe dream?  

Yes, I'm keeping records best I can so I have a lot of receipts and a lot of photos as well.  What I post here is a small part of the pictures I've taken as I go.

I've ordered samples from SMS so we'll see soon enough what they can do.  I think the Catalinas only had cloth and vinyl interiors.  No leather on them right?  

Last night I pulled the trim off the driver's side post and found that the windlace was actually more of a medium green.  The light green windlace I was seeing was from fading.  So now I'm wondering if the headliner was really that light or just faded too.  The headliner appears to be the same light green as the origonal seats, which are long gone, but I have a picture of my front seat in another car for reference purposes.  I have a piece of the headliner from under the visor mount that looks to be the origonal light green and I don't think that would have faded.

Thankfully my interior trim isn't all that bad but any pictures you can provide would be greatly appreciated!

Michael

John,

I pulled up a reference site I came across last year. Can you tell me if either of these are still valid?

D - Dundee Green Metallic
Lucite® Code - 2933L
Dulux® Code - 181-92725

Thanks!

Michael

Michael…..Duco, Dulux, and Lucite were trade names used by the Dupont Company for their enamel, lacquer and acrylic lacquer. The paint suppliers that I've dealt with, for the most part, can't translate those old codes to modern paint. Some of the more popular colors from the 1960's have been matched and formulas exist for them, but I don't think ours have been. That being said, General Motors didn't use twenty different colors for each of six different divisions. If "D" code was used by Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac, or GMC, it would still be Dundee Green Poly, even if the others called it Grape Marmalade or Pea Soup or whatever. See what you can find as far as a Chevrolet paint chip chart on the internet. If they used code "D" in 1959, then there's a good chance a new formula exists.

Genuine leather was only available on Bonneville convertibles.

I was looking at your post about cutting out the floor pans. From what I can see of your dash, you should have no problem finding a sample that can be matched. Your rear door panel also looks good to compare with the samples SMS is going to send. My experience has been that they will be right on with the colors of the vinyl. Post a picture of the cloth sample when you get it, and I'll compare it to the sample in my Dealers Album.

Did you check with SMS about the windlace and headliner. They may have both……John

Great idea John!

I posted a link to oldcarride.com last night.  On their 59 Impala page they show Dundee Green as
903 - Aspen Green Metallic
Lucite® Code - 2933L
Dulux® Code - 181-92725

The Chevy paint code may be different but the Lucite and Dulux codes are identical.  The Chevy color names may be different but a lot of the codes match Pontiac colors.  Chevy even used Roman Red as the same name.

I'm going to check with NAPA on the Chevy paint code angle.  I know they have nothing for the Pontiac colors.  They almost laughed when I asked last year...

I requested everything in green except leather for my car from SMS which should include the windlace if they make it, but I'm going to call and follow up on the headliner.  I'll post pictures of whatever they send.

Ok, maybe I forgot to mention this but I have a Ditzler PPG paint chip sheet for the 59's that lists the Ditzler PPG paint code as DDL-42479.  Can't they use this for mixing?

Another web site that you may want to check out for paint codes and cross referencing them is here

59 Pontiacs on Paintref.com

For anyone looking for a paint chip sheet for the 59's here is a web based version.

1959 Paint Chip Sheet

Also I've confirmed that the same color (under differnt names) was used across the board on the various GM models.  For example I looked up Chevy's Aspen Green Metallic and found this...

Usage list 1959 Chevrolet Aspen Green paint (more information)
year manuf model code paint name comment
1959 GM Buick D Sierra Spruce  
1959 GM Chevrolet 903 Aspen Green Ditzler Form 8005 (Oct1983)
1959 GM Oldsmobile D Willow Mist  
1959 GM Pontiac D Dundee Green

Info above found here...

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetail.cgi?paint=1959|Chevrolet|Aspen%20Green

Evidently BOP models used the same paint code but diffferent names.  Chevy just had to be special and use their own paint codes.  Typical!  LOL

Ok... after lots of phone calls and lots of searching...

My local PPG dealer was able to reference the origonal paint code from my 59 Catalina and I was told they can mix it in PPG's low end paint.  They are putting a call in to PPG to see if interior paint codes are available and to see if these colors can be mixed in their better paints.  It was a little confusing at first because they kept mentioning Linden Green when looking up the paint code for my 1959 Catalina.

In the meantime I found some more reference sites that with a little detective work can be very useful.  Actually it's another part of Paintref.com that I mentioned earlier.  Start by opening this page and writting down your PPG paint code.

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/chipcreate.cgi?year=1959&manuf=GM&model=Pontiac&ret=code

Now go to this page and type your PPG paint code into the "keyword" box then click search

http://paintref.com/paintref/notes.shtml

What you'll see is a listing of every make, model, and year that paint code was used.  For instance, our Mandalay Red PPG code 70961 was used by Pontiac through 1962 and also went by Roman Red on the Chevy's then was changed to Riverside Red through 1964.  So now you've got a number of cars to reference when trying to find someone who can make your paint.

In my case, when I searched for Dundee Green PPG code 42479 the search results show only the other 1959 GM models... BUT... the Chevy also shows another PPG code of 43651.

Ok...so back up and search for PPG code 43651 and bingo!  GM used the same color on all product lines under different color names in 1967.

My local PPG dealer was able to confirm this and even lists Dundee Green as the 1967 Pontiac name of Linden Green.  This is why my PPG dealer kept referring to the color as Linden Green.  With the help of Paintref.com I was able to confirm that the paint code my dealer was referencing was actually correct for my car even if the name wasn't right.

I finally was able to clean off the hood long enough to lift it and snap a shot of the trim tag.  This confirms the color as Dundee Green and the color scheme for the green interior as 203.  I know the C under accessories is for power steering.  What was the D for?



And the samples arrived from SMS Auto Fabrics.  The vinyl and headliner are correct here but I remember the seats being a color and fabric similar to the headliner.  The fabric sample for the seats doesn't look to be even close to what I had.  Fading aside, there was no black in the fabric. There is a pic with seats similar to mine in a post titled "1959 Pontiac Catalina Sport Sedan" from June 2012.



The carpet sample looks too dark but it does look similar in color to my origonal windlace.  The windlace sample should be darker.  You can see my origonal green windlace next to the sample sheet.

Michayos, a late welcome to the site. Look at my pictures under "What's your story" and "Old Friend". I've replaced all my interior except for my vinyl. My old seats were very faded, but the NOS fabric from SMS was absolutely correct for my Dundee Green car. Also headliner color was perfect. I replaced carpet from Stockinteriors.com was color #514 Moss Green 80/20 loop. I went with the darkest green windlace I could find from SMS because what they first sent was the light green color.
D is for Deluxe radio, DC is for Décor Group(Deluxe steering wheel, Deluxe wheel discs, chrome interior molding, RH ash tray, "PONTIAC" spelled out on dash) and stainless steel exterior side window frame. Hope this helps, Jim

Michael…..Cat SS 59 is correct, DC is the code for the Catalina Deluxe Trim. The cowl tag was for the use of Fisher Body. Power steering was the responsibility of the chassis and engine stations for final assembly, and wouldn't be on the tag. The use of those accessory codes were a hit and miss proposition. Some plants stamped a lot, some a few, and some not at all. By the way, your car was produced in the Wilmington Delaware BOP plant in case you didn't know. I compared SMS's sample that they sent to you with the sample from my Dealer Album, and it is spot on as far as pattern and colors. Those little black rectangles are correct.

Big difference in the color of the windlace. You might be able to dye it darker, or send them a sample of your's to see if they could match it. Don't purchase that trunk liner material from them. You can get a precut one from Ames for about the same price as you would pay for the material, and avoid having to cut and fit it yourself.

SMS can emboss the vinyl pieces that are needed for a correct restoration. They are the slash across the upper front seatback, the opposite slash across the rear seatback, the panel covering the rear of the front seatback, and the ends of the front seat. The seatback slashes have the crest emblem electrostitched into them……John

Jim, thanks for pointing me to pics of your beauty!  The pics of your car are the reason I joined this forum and I couldn't find them again after I joined.  

Thanks for decoding the accessories.  That all sounds right and Moss Green rings a bell for some reason... I seem to remember that being the actual color name or the carpets or maybe I came across it somewhere while looking for a replacement carpet.  Does anyone make a factory correct carpet that was part carpet and part vinyl/rubber?

The pattern of Jim's replacement seats looks to match the origonals and the 203 sample SMS sent.  But mine looked nothing like that pattern.  I stole this picture from another post here (sorry) but you can see a definite difference.  This is what my seats looked like.  



There are darker lines that might have been black at one time but I always thought it was a dark green.  You can also see solid white stripes that run from the front of the seat to the back in the same direction as the darker lines.  I've looked at Jim's restored seats and can't see how fading or wear would make them look like this.  Did they screw up on the stamping and use the 208 seat pattern instead?  The 208 pattern does have a solid white stripe as you can see from the sample on SMS's web site but it still doesn't look quite right.  But with 50+ years of fading and wear...maybe...

Any ideas?

Michael, you have done some amazing restorations on your car and I applaud you for trying to get it back to original. It looks like your seats may have a different pattern than mine from comparing all the pics. If you think it's pattern 208 and the colors look like they will still match, use it. I sure it is possible your car had the 208 pattern. My original carpet was in pretty good shape with the rubber floor wells and I hated to trash it, but the sound proof backing and the carpet itself smelled like crap, so I decided if I was replacing everything else with NOS and a "new" smell, I couldn't let the carpet ruin the experience. No where could I find original carpet with rubber floor wells so I went with the two piece with new sound backing. The carpet color matched and I added floor mats. In the end, your car will look great and you'll know whatever you choose for seat material, it will be correct. Your car's history is priceless and very similiar to mine. Jim

Michael…..that last picture you posted is of a 2door Sport Coupe. While the vinyl colors were the same, that pattern was only used in Catalina Sport Coupes and Vistas. That is code 208. What SMS sent you is code 203, which is correct for your car. That pattern (and three other colors) was only used in 2 and 4door sedans like Cat SS 59's and yours. No original floor covering is being reproduced, and likely never will be. The best you can do is use 80/20 loupe for the whole thing……John

Thanks guys.  The car was bought new by my great Aunt and handed down through the family and when I got it back in 1985 it was still all origonal.  Being the brilliant teenager that I was (dripping sarcasm) I did some things I regret now but nothing horribly drastic that can't be undone... at a cost of course!  LOL  At least I was smart enough not to cut out the dash for a CD player!

I guess what I remember it looking like isn't as important what it should look like.  The trim tag definitely says 203 so I'll stick with that and Jim's interior looks fabulous! 

I'll send SMS a sample of my windlace and see what they say about duplicating it.  It might be a little faded but I think they should be able to work with it.  

I'll try tracking down the carpet from Jim's source.  Hopefully they are still around.

That should about do it for my interior trim.  All that is left is getting the paint to match... I'm still working on that part.  

The car will still have some slight modifications when I'm done to make it unique but I'm going back to factory origonal everywhere else.

Correction to my previous posts:

The 1967 GM Linden Green is NOT the same color as the 59 Pontiac Dundee Green.

After questioning my PPG dealer for more details she confirmed that they are slightly different colors although for some reason the PPG cross reference guide lists the two colors as interchangable.

SMS is sending another windlace sample since the light green that they sent earlier is obviously wrong.

John, you mentioned Sherwood Green and Jademist Green as the two interior colors that might be a match for me.  Just a guess here but if the interior Jademist Green is the same as the exterior color on the 59's then it certainly is not Jademist Green.

Sherwood Green and Medium Green rang a bell and I did some research on them.

No Medium Green came anywhere close.  But when I did a search on Sherwood Green I found it was an exterior color used on various 1959 Ford and Mercury cars.  Ford listed it as Sherwood Green Metallic.  It sure looks right on the web page and the color on my interior is definitely metallic.  Here is a link to an example of it on a Ford Galaxie.

http://www.galaxieclub.com/internationalcarshow/memcarpix/59/phelan.html

and here's a link to the paint chips on paintref.com

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?wtcode=M1013&con=3&page=1&rows=50&size=large

I'm getting a small batch mixed by my PPG dealer for testing.  I'll let everyone know how it goes.

I feel like I'm stuck in some bad soap opera!  LOL

My PPG dealer got the 'recipie' for Sherwood Green from PPG and mixed up a little bit but it looks more like pea green.  Come to find out Ford had a spring variation of Sherwood Green and this was the recipie PPG sent.  The spring variation is color code M whereas the color that looks to be a match for our dark green interior has a color code of Q

My PPG dealer doesn't beleive me when I told her they sent her the wrong info for the paint mixture.

None of my interior pieces have been usable to scan the color and create a mixable matching color.  Supposedly, this is more due to there being no direct mixable match for the interior color of our cars than the quality of the sample piece I've given her for matching.

Thankfully I found a paint chip sheet for the 59 Fords on ebay and it's on its way to me.

As seen below the second attempt by SMS to match the windlace is officially a FAIL!  I only have 4 pieces about 2 inches long that appear to have survived the sun and weather.  I don't really want to send them a sample but might have to.

Mike , I believe these are reproductions so the threads won't match, but the color is very close to NOS. Here is a picture of mine. Sun versus shade appear to be very different colors, but are the same cord.

Jim don't get me wrong, your car looks fabulous! I just think that if I'm paying $5 per foot for this it should at least be the right color.

Mike, if we can not get NOS, I thought the sample was close enough to install. I was very happy to get NOS with the seat material and Headliner. I have a bigger challenge in my original Dundee Green lacquer paint. I have brought my car to the best local Paint guys, and they say lacquer NEVER dries. Very , very difficult to work with. They do not have the experience or knowledge to even consider messing with it. I'm interested in your exterior paint findings. Thanks Jim

Jim,

I've been told by my PPG distributor that she can't mix lacquer.  I know lacquer is banned in some states because it violates safety/environmental laws so maybe that's it.

I'm not a paint expert but I took 2 years of auto repair/auto body in high school and repainted 3 cars (including my 59 Catalina) with lacquer then applied a clear coat over it.  In fact lacquer paint was preferred by newbies because it was so easy to work with and dried fast.  

Maybe what your paint shop is referring to is that lacquer is a soft paint once it dries.  Lacquer will chip easily from things like loose gravel kicked up from your tires and you can easily scratch it with your fingernails.  Because lacquer was so soft it was also very easy to wet sand the color coat. On the other hand enamel is quite hard once it dries and can be a bitch to wet sand.  

Lacquer also fades over time from UV light.

One of the things that made lacquer so popular was the depth it gave the finish and the mirror shine you could get even if you were a beginner.

Today the pro's get that depth by putting on multiple clear coats over the color coat.

When I painted my 59, I put on 3 color coats, then 4 more of clear.  The orange peel aside, it looked fabulous when I was done and I had less than favorable working conditions (my parents barn).  I went on to paint both my 81 Monte Carlo and my 77 Olds Cutlass the same way with excellent results.

As I mentioned in another post under tech tips... I'm out of touch with the current products.  I'm not crazy about using enamel on the exterior and lacquer isn't an option for me.  I need to get up to speed on the new paint products pronto!

And the saga goes on...

I stopped by my PPG distributor yesterday.  The lady I usually talk to was out but the guy at the counter was very talkative.  He confirmed Lacquer is banned in NY state.  From what little info I can find on the subject, certain components of lacquer paints were banned, not the lacquer pigment itself, but the solvents and other chemicals used to make the airborne solution used for painting.  It's all part of the 1990 Clean Air Act that went into effect circa 1999 with a focus on VOC's.

Jim, you might be able to find someone to mix the paint and get all the solvents and other chemicals you'd need to do it yourself.  But professional shops wouldn't take the risk of being closed down if they got caught and they could face hefty fines if they did.  While I was talking to the guy at the desk he said the water based paints aren't in use yet by anyone but custom paint shops who have their own mixing equipment.  If you can avoid it, don't use Enamel on anything except the engine or something else that needs Hi-temp paints.  That leaves Eurethane as the only option for interior/Exterior color based paint.

My PPG distributor custom mixed my interior color in Eurethane.  It looks dang close but she mixed it in a type of paint that requires a clear coat, otherwise referred to as a dual stage paint with a seperate base coat & clear coat.  The single stage paint, which is what I wanted for the interior, doesn't require a clear coat.

In my never ending search to track down color codes and mixing instructions for both interior and exterior colors I came across the PPG codes for the interior colors.  I'll post them along with the exterior paint chip sheet under the "1959 Pontiac Information" section.