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 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker

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Cat SS 59

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PostSubject: window sticker   Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:53 pm

John, that is a shame the envelope is lost. I'm sure all that doc/paperwork was in it. Maybe your brother,mother , father still has it filed somewhere, in a box? Most guys do keep that "stuff". Mine was in a file cabinet at my late mother's house.. I even have the original "lizard embossed" document folder that came from the dealership. My two sets of keys still have the key codes attached with a miniature lincense plate and personal indentification tag attached to the key chain. Kinda cool. I wonder if the numbers on the plates were the first registration numbers?
I looked for the first plates in the barn with no luck.
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:06 pm

Jim- The paperwork is long gone, it dissapeared 25 years ago. The minature license plate you are speaking of was infact the the numbers on the original plate. If you do have the original key tags with the numbers, you can have the original license plates reproduced and possibly display them on your car. Oregon is one of the few states that allows you to obtain a set of original, restored or reproduced plates in the year vintage of the vehicle in question and pay a one time registration fee of $81.00 and is exempt from annual fees for the life of the car, regardless how many times it changes hands. I have the original plates and key tags for my car as well as the metal '59' year tags on the plates themselves. I use these to cover the "Special Interest" stickers given in place of a year sticker. They are also referred to as "Perpetual Registration" tags. There is a website that reproduces license plates, that technically are not supposed to used on a vehicle, but I have bought them and put them on restored cars without any problems. They are of pretty high quality and are 99% accurate in detail. I recommend them to anyone. Although a bit pricey, they are worth the $70-90.00 each for restored car. They will put anything on them you want. www.licenseplates.tv I warn that you must be absolutely correct in what you want, because once you place the order, you are stuck with what you get if YOU make a mistake!
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PostSubject: window sticker   Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:23 pm

John,
Here in Michigan they're called Authentic Plates and cost $35. They are valid until you sell, transfer, scrap, or modify the vehicle. The law states "Reproductions or remanufactured plates are not allowed". I looked for a decent authentic 1959 plate on line, but could not find one I liked. I decided on "new" Historic Plate which is good for 10 years and cost $30.
Here's a question, my miniature plate has 61 on it for when it expired. This is also the way new cars are registered and plates show expiration date, Month and year. Why does the classic car world have the year of the car and not the true original plate that would show the year of expiration? If I wanted my 1959 car to be truely original, the first plate on a 1959 car would have a 61 in the upper corner? Registration being a two year renewal.

Jim
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PostSubject: window sticker    Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:40 pm

Sorry Chad, I was calling you John

jim
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:16 am

Jim.....Thanks for posting that. What a great piece of historical information! I was glad to see that the prices matched up except for the penny difference of the two-tone paint. I would think that the window sticker would look much like your invoice, with the addition of the descriptions of each option and accessory. What I see there is a Catalina Sport Sedan without radio or factory outside rear view mirror, but otherwise nicely equiped. Sometimes the dealer would steer a customer away from the factory mirror and, prior to delivery, install an aftermarket one. Could make a little more profit that way. Many people ordered their cars without radios. My parents never had a radio in their cars until 1962, when they bought a new Catalina out of dealer stock. My mother, who drove for 50+ years without a ticket or even a parking lot scratch, felt that they were a great distraction. Even when all the rest of their cars came with radios, she would turn them off when she was in the car. I got their 1959 Catalina, and they traded my 1956 Ford convertible for the 1962. How uncool was that! An 18 year old kid with a beautiful Cameo Ivory Sport cuope, and no radio. I survived with a little 6-transistor hanging or the mirror for about a month. Then it was down to the dealer for an indash aftermarket one.

The ashtray lamps were included in the price of the lamp group, which is correct on your invoice. If they are not on the car, the original buyer was cheated out of them for some reason. He/she should have been charged for each individual accessory rather than the whole group, which would have been less money. Maybe a factory error that was adjusted at the time of delivery, or maybe they are there and you don't realize it. Check this. Remove your ashtrays completly from the dash. If you can, shine a light into the area between the upper part of the ashtray bracket and the lip of the dash opening. You are looking for a small round bullet shaped metalic cylinder. Also shine the light to the left toward the cigar lighter receptacle. There should be one there also. These three little cylinders hold the bulbs and sockets. If you can't see in there well enough, you can take the ashtray bracket out with two screws at the top and two below the dash. It could be that the bulbs are burnt out, or the cylinder isn't making good ground on the bracket......John
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PostSubject: window sticker   Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:18 pm

John,
You are so right, the GM boys did not cheat my grandfather. 20 degress and a flash light in my mouth, there they were, silver bullets behind the bracket. I took out the tray and bracket just to see exactlly what these silver bullets look like. A small pin hole in the bullet clipped into the bracket. A light like I've never seen before. Well, with the lights on, there is no light coming from the bullet, so it must be burnt out. Maybe the wiring? How do you replace these??
To the radio, yep, my grandfather probably thought the same as your mother, no radio. I put a in Pontiac radio, antenna, and mirror on this car back in the 80's because of the same reasons you had. Can't drive this thing without music.
Thanks, Jim
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Jim.....Glad you found them. The cylinder is just a sleeve that keeps the light concentrated into the ashtray, through that little hole. The back end of the sleeve is actually the back end of the socket inside. By pulling the end out of the sleeve, you will expose the entire socket and bulb. After 50 years they may have corroded together, so you might have to twist and pry some. Before you give up on the bulbs, use a jumper wire to a good ground, and check them with the headlamps on and the dash lamps on full bright. They won't work if they aren't grounded well. If the bulbs test bad, replace them and retest. It's a good idea to lightly sand the clips on the sleeves and the area around the slots on top of the brackets. Remember, there is another lamp on the cigar lighter, mounted just the same as on the ashtray bracket. Before attempting to fix that one, disconnect your battery cable. With the driver side ashtray bracket removed, you should be able to reach the sleeve attached to the lighter recepticle. CAUTION...the lighter power wire is always energized unless you disconnect the battery. With this project completed, you can drive down the road at night, puffing on your stogie or doobie, secure in the knowledge that you can safely replace the lighter and find the ashtray.....John
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:14 am

To all interested.....I just noticed from Jim's invoice, a discrepancy in my explainations of the various package groups. I stated that the decor group precluded the lamp group because of the double listing of the passenger side ash tray. Both of these do, however, show up on the invoice. I can't find any price combinations that would work for this. Therefore it seems that a buyer who ordered both, double paid for the extra ash tray. Looks like a G.M. gotcha!.....John
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:07 am

Jim.....Since these lamps were an accessory, there was no provision for them built into the standard wiring harness. The fuse block was, however, engineered to make it easy for the factory or the dealer to install them. If you look along the bottom edge of the fuse block, the first male spade terminal on the left is where the lamps get their power. The fuse above this (third from the left) is for the lamps. You might want to check this first (14 amp I think.).....John
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PostSubject: window sticker   Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:31 pm

John,
Bullet pulled apart very easy. Power to the socket is very good, test works every time...but when not testing , the light and the ground are very stubborn. Light works some time, not always. Put the steel wool to the bulb, inner socket, outer socket, clips, basically every thing I could see, and the light works only when it wants. Tried pinching the socket, didn't matter.
I'm thinking just replace socket/light, and grounding some other way.
It's xmas eve and I'm fucking around with a BULB...my wife came out to the garage and told me to get my ass in.
Merry Christmas.
jim
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:16 am

Jim.....If you have access to a welder, tack the legs of the cylinder to the bracket. Also use small star washers under the heads of the bracket mounting screws. This should give you a good solid ground. You could tack the lighter too, but be careful, the metal is much thiner......John
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PostSubject: window sticker   Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:22 pm

John,
Problem solved... I've never seen a bulb that some times work and then doesn"t...bulbs are either burnt out or good. Not the GE 53. The ash tray bulb that came on sometimes and not other times was the culprit. For the hell of it, I bought 3 new bulbs, put them in and presto, lights are ON. Both ash trays and lighter all work. Went out tonight to see the effect and it is very cool.
Like the saying goes, look for the easy fix first. Thanks for your help.
Jim
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:10 am

Kinda slow 'round here lately! I know everyone has been busy with the holidays and everything and I love the winter wonderland when it comes around, but I'm glad it's over. Only 11 months before it all starts all over again! I decided to renovate the kitchen and surrounding rooms. Now, I know why I've put it off all this time. Not only have I updated everything, I decided to build my cabinets instead of buy them off-the-shelf. I don't regret it, but man has it made for some long ass days! Although it's coming along, I still have a long road ahead until I can deem it "Finished". Remodeling is not unlike restoring an old car. Careful planning and dismantling are a must. I don't like doing things twice, so with surgical like precision I map everything out BEFORE I even pick up any tools, let alone a saw. I think cleaning as you go is the key, like a car because it sure makes the job seem like your making progress anyway. After turning my shop into a cabinet making facility, it looks like a bomb went off in there with all the dust covering just about everything. Anyway, just an update, if anyone really wanted to know.....The MSRP is still going and I have not forgot about it or anything, but life gets in the way some times!!
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:46 pm

Chad, I've got a friend here in Tacoma with two '59 Pontiacs, and he's eager to buy a window sticker for each -- whenever you're ready to roll. Let us know.
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:07 pm

Brian- Send me the related info and I will make them! You can either send an email or snail mail. Whatever is easier for you. Does he have all the info? Let me know, and will go from there. Chad
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:10 am

Chad.....Now you've really got me depressed with your talk about kitchen remodeling! My wife told me that I can't buy any more old cars until I get rid of our old (1958) kitchen. Oh well, I guess I need something to do for January and February beside shoveling snow. I'm going to send you my information as soon as I make a determination about which fictional dealer and the destination charge. I wonder how the assembly plant was listed; Kansas City or Fairfax? I'd like to get this part done and begin the next project. Hope you and your family had a good Holiday......John
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:31 am

John- Sorry, I didn't mean to depress you, It's actually quite fun. Building cabinets yourself allows you to almost anything. I have been able put in little unique things that you can't get at Ikea or Home Depot and they don't have silly little names like SPUTNIK and they will be made in the United States! Anyway, I'm jealous about your 1958 Kitchen....I lobbied for a vintage 50's Kitchen, but that was shot down by the Missus! I was fine with the Kitchen the way it was (for now) but my Wife didn't see the nostalgia in our Kitchen that looked like the set of "That 70's Show" with hints of the Brady Bunch. Even though I do all the cooking. She has never cooked and if I had to rely on her to feed me, I would be eating tuna sandwiches and Mac & Cheese for the rest of my life!! Oh well, such as life. I look forward to making a sticker for you, just send the info and it's done! I'm pretty sure The Fairfax plant was labled as "Kansas City, Kansas" since that is how the other cities are listed. I think GM would use names like Fairfax, Hamtramk, etc. etc. as nicknames. When you decide what you want, just drop me a line. I hope you all had a wonderful Holiday Season as well. I have free snow to anyone who wants it...You load and I'll even supply the shovel and Hot Cocoa! I'm thinking if you were closer, I would take your 50's kitchen and rebuild it in my shop, just for fun! Talk to you soon, Chad
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:31 am

All interested parties.....I've got all the information together to send to Chad, except for the destination charge. I'm having a tough time trying to get a handle on this. Thought I'd put it out here to see if anyone has some ideas. My original impression was that the charges would be based on mileage from the assembly plant to the new car dealer. Although this may seem logical, none of the numbers make any sense. At this point, we only have four samples to consider, unless Brian can dig up a few more 1959 G.M. stickers. Below is the limited information we have.

1. Brian's original Pontiac sticker.....Pontiac MI. to Detroit MI......31 miles.....$26.30.....$0.53/mile.
2. Jim's Grandfathers sales agreement.....Framingham MA. to Greenfield MA......105 miles.....$77.25.....$0.74/mile.
3. Brian's Buick Electra sticker.....Wilmington DE. to Smithfield NC......392 miles.....$214.00.....$0.29/mile.
4. I found Buick Invicta sticker.....Arlington TX. to Abilene TX......164 miles.....$233.00.....$0.81/mile.

I got the mileages off of driving distance calculators from Google. For the most part, they used Interstate directions. Although the Interstate system didn't exist in 1959, they tended to paralell or take over Federal and State highways. For example: I-95 didn't exist, but the Delaware Maryland and Virginia Turnpikes did, as did the Baltimore-Washington Expressway and the beltways around both cities. These are all part of I-95 now, so the 392 miles from Wilmington to Smithfield is probably close.
The other thing that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, is a situation like has been mentioned by both Chad and Brian. What would have been the destination charges for cars that came from assembly plants not the closest to the original dealer. Northwest cars should have been built at Southgate. If they could not or did not supply them, was the customer penalized because the cars came from farther away?
Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?.....John
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:47 am

Here's my theory. There could be the possibilty that the differences in freight charges, regardless of location of assembly and dealer destination, is that the cars could have been shipped by truck to local dealers (or say within a few hundered miles) and the ones destined for farther localities, were shipped by rail. This still doesn't explain why my car was built in Kansas and shipped to Portland, Oregon. On another note; I have a 1965 Ford Fairlane that was also built in Kansas and it was shipped to Seattle and sold new in Portland as well. Ford also had a plant in California building these.


I have narrowed down a build date of about the second or third week of November '58 and Grandpa Jig bought the car just before Christmas in '58. Perhaps Southgate was either off-line or production couldn't keep up with demand with California orders. I don't think the customer would be penalized for this discrepancy in the freight charge. I could be wrong, just a theory. Automakers were and still are in the practice of selling cars at a loss in the beginning to keep up with demand and create profit in volumes later on. Ford did it with the Escort and GM is doing it with the Volt. It still, no matter how we try to narrow this down, does not make any sense, since the Monroney sticker was printed at the factory where the car was produced and had the "Dealer to whom delivered" filled in before it left the building.


Orders from the dealer did not go directly to the plant, but to GM headquarters, known as a COPO (Central Office Production Order). GMHQ, would then group the orders by model and location, then issue an RPO (Regular Production Order) to each plant, especially if the dealer ordered a convertible, it would come from the Pontiac, MI. facility only. I don't know if this helps, but maybe a happy medium can be achieved in this easter egg we have here. Happy Hunting!
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PostSubject: MSRP   Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:35 am

There seems to be some question as to whether Pontiac used a disclaimer on the window stickers for the options and accessories of upscale cars. I don't believe they did for a couple reasons. First is the fact that General Motors was still operating under a business model that was established by Alfred Sloane back in the early 1920's. That concept was, that each division provided a logical upward progression for the consumer, as their financial and social situation improved. In the early days, Oakland was centrally positioned between Chevrolet and Oldsmobile. Pontiac on the other hand was much closer to Chevrolet than to Oldsmobile. You could argue that a well equiped Bonneville was more expensive and luxurious than a basic "88" Olds, but these price overlaps were rare. The second reason is that, other than the wheelbase, overall length, and upgraded interior trim, there were embarrassingly few options and accessories over and above the lesser cars.

All that being said, if Pontiac did in fact use a disclaimer, it would probably be as follows;

THE FOLLOWING ITEMS - OPTIONS OR
ACCESSORIES ON SOME OTHER MODELS
ARE STANDARD EQUIPMENT ON THIS 1959
MODEL BONNEVILLE
DUAL SPEED ELECTRIC WIPERS
DELUXE STEERING WHEEL - INSTRUMENT
PANEL PAD - DELUXE WHEEL COVERS
ELECTRIC CLOCK - PASSENGER ASSIST
BAR - COURTESY LAMPS - SPARE TIRE
COVER - 4BBL ENGINE

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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:52 am

Chad.....Your theories seem to be logical. I don't think customers were penalized for production situations. 1959 was a problem year for automobile production. The manufactures were not totally prepared for the huge jump in sales versus the 1958 Eisenhower Resession. Somewhere around here I've got a two page add from Life or Look or Saturday Evening Post, in which Simone Knudsen actually apologizes for slow production and assures customers that all orders will be filled promptly. It would appear that early production was not prepared for pent up demand.

Prior to World War II, automobile sales were fairly open and transparent. Manufactures often advertized the prices of their cars, and each was trying to give the most value to prospective customers. Inflation was minimal and prices were stable for long periods. The Chevrolet "490" model actually had a retail price of $490. Henry Ford actually lowered the prices of Model T's year after year. The problems began in the sellers market following the War. This is where car salesmen and dealers got their poor reputation. Customers didn't have a real sense of values, and many examples of people paying Buick prices for Chevrolets existed. This is what gave rise to Congress passing the window sticker regulations. From 1959 on, you may not have known the cost of a car, but you had a good comparison of retail prices from car to car and brand to brand to help negotiate with the dealer. And you sure didn't have to pay more than the manufacture said it was worth.

One thing still puzzles me. I bought two cars that I ordered, and my parents bought a few others. In both cases, I shopped several dealers, and knew the MSRP of the car and accessories I wanted, based on the window stickers of cars they had in stock. When I sat down to negotiate the deals, I knew the total retail of what I wanted. The salesman used a list to come up with the same price as I had, then calculated the discount and trade allowances to arrive at a mutually agreed price. Never in any of those many negotiations were destination charges discussed, or calculated into the deal. My thought is that the real cost may have had no relationship to the sticker and gave the dealer some more margin. Anyway, my fairy tale is in the mail. You should have it in a couple days......John
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:36 am

John- I look forward to seeing what you've come up with and I will get right on it. I agree with what you said about not knowing the actual invoice price for the car. I spoke to a man who has sold and wholesaled both new and used cars since the early 50's. He told me dealers paid about half of the "Suggested" retail price posted on the car. Like you said, the price on the car was more of a comparison and bargaining tool, than what the dealer would take for the car. The window sticker on my car totals up to $3568.86 starting from the base of $2704.00. I was told by my Dad, Grandpa only paid $2860.00 for it. Not sure how accurate that is, but Grandpa Jig would not have paid full price without some haggling....that I know for sure!
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:00 pm

Chad.....After your last post I took another look at the sales agreement for my parents Catalina Sports Coupe that they bought new in 1959. It was ordered on January 16th. The agreement lists all the options and accessories, but not the individual prices. Nowhere does it mention a destination charge. From our price lists I calculated the MSRP as $3398.72. Impossible to know what the margin was, or if the destination charge figured into it, but they paid $2000.00 cash plus a 1955 Pontiac 870 Chieftin Catalina in trade. Would be nice to have a 1959 NADA guide to figure what wholesale was on a 4 year old Pontiac, to see what they really paid. The only other oddity was that it had the correct outside rear view mirror, that wasn't on the sales agreement......John
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:11 am

John, cool that your parents had a '55 Chieftain 870 Catalina. My parents had a '56 Chieftain 870 Catalina that they purchased new and drove for four years.
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PostSubject: Re: 1959 Pontiac MSRP Window Sticker    Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:19 am

Located another original '59 Buick window sticker. This car was produced at Buick's home assembly plant in Flint, Michigan, so perhaps the destination charges are indicative of charges from Pontiac's home assembly plant in Pontiac, Michigan.

Interestingly, even though this is an upper series model (an Electra but not an Electra 225), this one has no listing of items that are standard equipment on this model.

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